SEASON 2: EPISODE 10 TRANSCRIPT

Marguerite "Maggy" Barankitse

Maggy Barankitse: The journalists asked me, "Maggy, now you lost everything. What you built during 22 years now is behind you. You have no money, no country." And I laugh. I said, "But I lost nothing. I freed with my love and I am able to rebuild again," because Maison Shalom was not those buildings. It's a message that we can live together as children of God and we can rebuild. We are citizen of the world. I will return one day in my country and rebuild again.

Dr. Greg Jones: Our world is facing significant challenges, and at every turn, another conflict seems to await. Yet we survive, we overcome, we even thrive by relying on an intangible and undeniable gift: hope. It fills us, connects us, highlights our individual purpose, and unites us in the goal to do more together. Hope fuels us toward flourishing as people and as a community. My name is Greg Jones, president of Belmont University, and I'm honored to be your guide through candid conversations with people who demonstrate what it really means to live with hope and lean into the lessons they've picked up along their journey. They are The Hope People.

Today's agent of hope is Maggy Barankitse, humanitarian and founder of the Maison Shalom movement, an international NGO caring for more than 47,000 orphaned children and refugees displaced during the Burundian civil war in Africa from 1993 to 2005. As you'll hear, Maggy's journey is one of unimaginable loss, relentless hope, and a belief in the power of love to change the world. Forced to witness the brutal massacre of over 70 people, including her own friends, Maggy refused to let hatred and violence control her life, turning that pain into decisive action and hope. Throughout our conversation captured live at the 2024 Hope Summit, we explore how Maggy's unwavering faith sustained her and why she believes that only through love and hope can we elicit a positive change in the world around us.

Maggy, it's a great joy to have you on The Hope People Podcast. Thank you for being with us.

Maggy Barankitse: Thank you to invite a crazy woman.

Dr. Greg Jones: Crazy woman? She's also known to break out into dance, but since I cannot dance, we're not going to do that. We'll just talk. Maggy, you have lived an extraordinary life. You were from Burundi originally and Ruyigi, and you went through a very difficult stretch during the Burundian Civil War. Talk about Maison Shalom and how you found the courage to rise up out of that adversity.

Maggy Barankitse: I must say that I didn't founded Maison Shalom. I follow the children, the eyes of the children, and its children themselves when I ask them, "How we will call this home?" And one of the children, who was only five years old, stood up and say, "Maison Shalom." I said, "Do you understand shalom?" And then they said, "Yes, yes, of course." I said, "No, we have problems with Hutu, Tutsi, and now, you add another problem. It's a Hebrew, and we'll have problems." But children looked at me. "But you said that Jesus was Jewish. Then he will give us peace." And I told them, "No, Jesus didn't speak Hebrew. He speak Aramaia." And said, "But he will give us peace." Then it's not me who created Maison Shalom.

But I must tell you why I stood up. It was so horrible for me because you know Burundi and Rwanda, since 1959, we were killing each other between Hutu and Tutsi because of our bad leaders. It's not ethnic problem, it's bad governance. And then we were Christian, and for me, I can't understand that in Burundi we were 80% of Christian, and I can't understand why we pray our father and we will kill our brothers and sisters, our children. Unfortunately, I was thinking that I can do something as a Christian, as a woman to protect the lives of children.

I adopted seven children, four Hutu and three Tutsi kids, and in 1993 when the civil war began, I must... freed my village and when I was thinking in a bishop compound, "It's a sacred place. Nobody can come in this place and kill people." It was on 22nd of October in 1993. Then on my way I met also my colleague, Hutu and Tutsi together. I said, "We are so stupid. We can protect each other. We will go in bishop house when Hutu will come. Then you Hutu, you will protect me with other Tutsi. And if Tutsi came, I will also stand up and we can protect each others."

Then unfortunately, it was Sunday early in the morning. I was preparing food for all those people who were there in the bishop house. The bishop was not there. It was a Catholic bishop. And then when I was preparing, I feel stunned through on my head and then I realized that they were Tutsi like me, but I took all the Hutu and I said to them, "You go in the roof, and then I will protect you." I went out, I said, "It's Sunday. We are children of God. Don't die like Cain who killed his brother." Then they took me and they tied me. They beat me. They took my clothes and I said, "Why? You are Christian. What are you doing?" They said, "How you can protect those people who had killed your family?" I said, "No. If you killed, you will also be killers. Why you killed the other? Those people are innocent."

But they put the fire, and because I refuse to give the key to open where the people were, and then they separate us, Hutu and Tutsi. But they said to me that I am a traitor. I said, "No, I am a Christian. I am. I belong to a very noble family, and it's Sunday. I will not allow you to kill my brothers and my sisters." But they killed them in front of me, 72 people. And then when they were killing, because we were two Tutsi women, my friend Juliette who have her two daughters, Lizette and Lydia, and she looked to the killers and said, "Untie her." And I said, "I will give you the money," because I worked as a secretary of the bishop. I went and I took the money. I said, "I give you. Don't kill children." And then Juliette looked at me and said, "Maggy, I give you my two daughters."

"Please raise them as a mother. I give you these two daughters. I will follow my husband because I didn't married a Hutu man, but a man that I love." And then they killed Juliette in front of me, also his husband. Since this day, I was thinking, "What I can do?" Then in the afternoon I was in the middle of those bodies trying to found my seven children. I didn't found them. Then I went in the chapel of the bishop and I said my lament. I said, "God, my mom lied to me. You are not love. You can't allow that. Where are my seven children?" In this moment when I was crying and insult God and say, "No, how you can humiliate me?"

I was thinking that I will create a new generation in Burundi who will break this cycle of violence. And in this moment, the voice of my first adoptive daughter, Chloe, she said, "Mom, we are here." Then the first miracles was there, and then I took all those kids with confidence. Then the 25 kids, I took them also, and this is how we began this extraordinary adventure. But it was not me. It was kids and it was the hand of God. And from 25, I became a mom for more than 30,000 kids. When we moved from Burundi, we looked to the older children who passed through those structure. Because I have five centers, it was more than 47,000 kids who were saved, not by me, but all my friends from all over the countries, from USA, from Belgium, from Germany. So this is how God is. Now I can pray and say, "Mea culpa, God is love."

Dr. Greg Jones: Wow. I think God has a pretty significant ally in you and vessel to accomplish that, starting with 25 children to more than 47,000 children. It's beautiful and powerful. You created the community of Maison Shalom in Burundi. You built a swimming pool over the site of where the massacre had happened, so as you've said to me, children's eyes would be cleansed like the waters of baptism. You built a film theater. You've trained those students. It's not only that you've saved them from violence, you've given them hope by giving them a life of joy and training, and at one time, you were employing hundreds of those children in the work of Maison Shalom. Talk about how you built that community and the partnerships and the love.

Maggy Barankitse: French journalists one day wrote in Geo an article and said, "A saint in hell." And then I called him, I said, "Pascal, normally a saint must live in heaven. Then you give me an action plan to transform this hell in heaven." You can't imagine... of course, I have an extraordinary amazing mother who raised me with confidence in providence, but the first years, nobody can understand me. I went in UNICEF, ask, "Please, I have so many babies. I have no milk, I have no clothes. Help me." They said, "No. What is your action plan?" I said, "Love." They said, "You want that we give you money and you have no strategy?"

"What is your strategy? You said love?" I said, "No. How people don't understand that we still love? We can transform this world in paradise." First, I got those babies and they were thinking that the war will stop. Finally. It was a civil war. During 12 years, I got AIDS children, and I can tell you, in 2001, I had 251 babies under two years. Among those babies, I think 100 were AIDS kids. And every day, a baby die. Journalists can't understand. The other said... my family, [foreign language 00:16:27] family, said, "Stop to be a crazy woman. Stop to carry all those things." But I said, "No, I have triumphant confidence in providence. I know that love will win, however." And I was thinking, how to stop that mothers die? I must create in hospital. But I have no money. I succeed. I must tell those people they are here who helped me to build a hospital.

But I said, "No. Here, they put all the bodies. We must clean and build a swimming pool." Because I am Christian, I know if I put a swimming pool there, water will clean all the sins. It was near the military camp. The UN agency came and said, "Why you spend the money on this?" "You didn't give me the money, and you come to me to oblige me to do your stupidity and spend money in stupid things?" I build the hope because we are builders of hope. Then I succeed. Many people join me, they give me in Seattle also an award for $1 million. Then, I build a cinema. I build a library, restaurant. But I want to tell to everybody we are able to transform our world in paradise, because when I began, I have no money, no house. I was in the street, but I stood up with confidence and transformed my hometown in paradise for the kids. No mother during eight years died in giving birth.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's beautiful. You talk about love as your strategy and you've changed me over the years. I remember one time before you shared that story with me, I had seen you when you had come to North Carolina to Duke and I said, "What's new, Maggy?" And you said, "Well, I've started Maison Shalom in Eastern Congo." And I said, "Why Eastern Congo?" And you said, "There are children who need love."

And I started thinking about strategy and spreading yourself too thin and how it would be funded. And I started to ask a question, and then I realized love is your strategy and I was thinking like the UN and a bureaucrat. So you changed me in thinking about that. And that's part of what you mean, I think, when you say love made me an inventor. That focus on loving children has also changed how you built Maison Shalom. You've shared a story about when a young boy after church one day came with his parents, and his parents wanted to have him tell you something. Can you share that story and what you learned from that?

Maggy Barankitse: Sometimes when we build things, we don't realize that we can, even with love, create conflict, social conflict. In Maison Shalom, all the kids can eat three times. And our neighbors who were poor, those kids come in Maison Shalom. But in the evening I said, "Now I will accompany you to your home, because you are lucky you have parents." But one boy, eight years old, said to the parents, "I wish you die, that I can go to Maison Shalom to Oma." They call me Oma. And then the parents came after the church and said, "Jiji, can you repeat what you have said yesterday evening?" "Yes, because always we come here, he give food, clothes, but we must come in your house. You have no electricity, no water. Then I wish that you can die and I stay here."

Oh my God. And then I change. I began with many organization. I ask also UNICEF, other NGO to help me to make a reserve for their families, and then those kids can return in their villages, origin villages. And we began to build a community without big difference. We build all over the country 3,000 little house, and those kids were near the killers of their families. And then we began to make reconciliation and forgiveness with the families. We made some peace building like that, and those kids became the future, the hope for our country. And it's what I dream. Even now, I am in exile. I think that together, the impossible can become possible.

Dr. Greg Jones: An architect of the impossible becoming possible in beautiful ways. You said you're now living in exile. You had to flee Burundi. The president who had called you the mother of the country decided you'd gotten too powerful, and put out an assassination hit on you. And so you had to flee to Rwanda, and yet you didn't lose heart or hope or love. That remained your strategy. Talk about what you've done since you've been living in exile in Rwanda to continue to embody love and hope.

Maggy Barankitse: Thank you, Greg, to invite. Now you must know that in my country, they condemned me, but when I arrived, of course, without nothing to the airport because I managed... they helped me how to flee, the ambassador of Belgium help me and also the company of, it's in Brussels, and I arrived to the airport without nothing, no money, no passport because they revoked my passport. When I arrived, the police said, "Your passport can't work."

But I was waiting to the airport with a VIP person. And then when I arrived, the journalist asked me, "Maggy, now you lost everything. What you built during 22 years now is behind you. You have no money, no country, no clothes," because I have the clothes that the wife of the ambassador of Belgium gave to me. And I laugh loudly. I said, "But I lost nothing. I freed with my treasure because love. I freed with my love, and I am able to rebuild again." The journalist said, "You lost nothing?" "Yes, because Maison Shalom was not those buildings."

"It's a message that we can live together as children of God and we can rebuild. We are citizen of the world. I will return one day in my country and rebuild again." Then I decide to go, to return, and to see all those people who were refugees, this word that I hate, because I don't know why they use refugee because we are all... a refugee is a normal human being with talent and can transform also the host community and give him... and live together as children of God. I return in Rwanda, I see this refugee camp, and then I was so angry. I said, "We must do something." Then I return in Belgium thanks to a family who is here, and I said, "We can do something." But they said, "What we can do?" I said, "We have possibility. We have enough love, enough strength inside to transform this camp in city."

And my dream, it's to go all over all those camp and transform in a city where people can also work and show that we are all children of God. And now we succeed because we open even together with all the people. I think always, you think it's me. No, behind me. There are many, many people who don't make noise. I wish that journalists can also make noise for those people who are doing so wonderful things, amazing work, but they did it. They never showed those people. Enough. And today, I ask you to make noise because those who make bad things, they made so much noise that you are there, you don't make noise. Now, stand up and make noise. We will stop them. Those who think... yes, you young people, you are the most beautiful richness we have. You are our hope. Speak up and rise up.

Dr. Greg Jones: That's beautiful, thank you. And you do that in such beautiful ways because your whole life and your body and your smile exudes a sense of joy and hope and love. One of the powerful things of the work you do is that you take places, land, places that have been sites of violence and pain and suffering, and you transform them into places of hope and love and joy. How do you find the strength to keep going when you see so much pain and so much suffering?

Maggy Barankitse: It's a very difficult question, my faith, because when I think that Jesus went to the cross, many people think that he failed. But for us, we know that this love went and put him on the cross. Then when I fail, when I have no strength, I hear the voice of Jesus say, "Don't be afraid. I will be with you until the end of the world." Then I became... for example, I made so many mistakes in my life. You must take time also for meditation. You must take time and remember that God doesn't ask us to carry the world on our shoulder. And we have friend.

We must be humble and ask advice to our friend when we don't see the way, because God created... we are one humanity and we have brothers and sisters, parents, and then we can ask advice. What I know, everybody can abandon you, even your family, but there is one who will never abandon you. The one who went on the cross because of love. Then because of that, I am able also to follow Jesus on the cross, but to remember that even Jesus, he said he prayed. He was afraid. We are not angel. We are human, people with weakness, but we are saved when we let God be good in our lives.

Dr. Greg Jones: Thank you for participating in this conversation with The Hope People. Our aim is to inspire you to become an agent of hope yourself, and to help us cultivate a sense of wellbeing for all. To join our mission and learn more about this show, visit TheHopePeoplePodcast.com. If you enjoyed this conversation, remember to rate and review wherever you get your audio content.